Sugababes

[Poison ivy]

34 minutes ago, Otaku said:

Supposedly they never recorded that track.

The individual who leaked Keisha’s version of “No More You” (not a track featured on the “Sweet 7” album sampler) supposedly has it (and potentially more) too.

By potentially more, I mean the incorrect CDr of rejects Jade was initially mistakenly given to learn vocals for the “Sweet 7” album (and who potentially had access to the Island archive at one point).. the individual that is, not Jade.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Dax Diameter
Syntax

[Heartbreak Anthem]

55 minutes ago, BraveNewSeth said:

Sounds like we have the same files. 

Do you maybe have the Sweet 7 album cover with Kiesha on it instead of Jade in HQ?

I don't, unfortunately. I only have the one I made.

[Otaku]

Hm interesting...you're saying Jade initially was sent a CD full of rejected tracks, instead of the ones that were selected for the album? So there's probably a decent amount of tracks that were actually recorded...

So what is there known that was recorded? I can think of:

Better Than Love
Firefly
Killer On The Run
Lincoln Continental
2 x Crystal Nicole/Syience
2 x RedOne

I'm Not Just A Girl ??? (not sure if they actually recorded it)
Never Look Back & Tetris ??? (think these were done after Sweet 7 but I'm not 100% sure)

And then there are probably at least a few more StarGate & Brian Kennedy tracks. Pretty sure there should be at least 1 James Fauntleroy/Brian Kennedy track.

I used to assume that would be Firefly, but it seems this is most likely the Sugababes track:

I know that they supposedly 'had 10 Ne-Yo songs to pick from, but only got to record one'. But I have no idea where that info even came from. Seems like a random way to select a song, especially on an album that's so heavily fabricated by Sugababes standards.

But who in their right mind would pick No More You over Lincoln Continental? Such a boring track, especially the Sugababes version. The original instrumental actually had a bit of a Sugababes-vibe and they went with a boring piano ballad version. Obviously, I don't know which songs were available to them, but there were definitely much better Ne-Yo/StarGate tracks that leaked around that time.

Come to think of it, the only really good StarGate track that album had IMO was Thank You For The Heartbreak, which is a fucking underrated gem of a track, that somehow just got buried in the mediocre messiness that is Sweet 7. I'm guessing the label figured Lincoln Continental was too much like TYFTH though, and they were probably lacking slower songs that worked well with vocal harmonies so they went with No More You.

It's crazy how big that album seemed when they were working on it and...what we actually got.

[Poison ivy]

1 hour ago, Otaku said:

But who in their right mind would pick No More You over Lincoln Continental? Such a boring track, especially the Sugababes version. The original instrumental actually had a bit of a Sugababes-vibe and they went with a boring piano ballad version. Obviously, I don't know which songs were available to them, but there were definitely much better Ne-Yo/StarGate tracks that leaked around that time.

Not sure I necessarily share your views on “No More You”, however when the MSN Live/ duo performance dropped, there were enough fans (myself included) who were blown away by Keisha’s soulful vocals particularly on the “ooh-wo-wo-no-no” parts and for me (and other fans of the MSN Live/ duo version of the song), we became obsessed with the notion of how elevated that vocal part (at the time we were convinced HAD to be sang by Keisha) - would sound on the studio recording.  It later transpired of course that in the studio version (with all three on vocals) that vocal part had actually gone to Amelle (though at the time no-one knew) and it didn’t hit the mark in quite the same way.  It also happened to be a studio recording omitted from the album sampler that we HAD to hear and ultimately did (even though that version in the end didn’t quite live up to expectations).

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Dax Diameter
Grammar

[Poison ivy]

22 hours ago, Otaku said:

So what is there known that was recorded? I can think of:

Better Than Love
Firefly
Killer On The Run
Lincoln Continental
2 x Crystal Nicole/Syience
2 x RedOne

I'm Not Just A Girl ??? (not sure if they actually recorded it)
Never Look Back & Tetris ??? (think these were done after Sweet 7 but I'm not 100% sure)

And then there are probably at least a few more StarGate & Brian Kennedy tracks. Pretty sure there should be at least 1 James Fauntleroy/Brian Kennedy track.

You do appear to be on the right lines with this and I have heard that some StarGate productions were on the rejects CDr.

You may very well be correct regarding that above “Firefly” composition - however there is also a part of me with a curiosity about an unreleased Bonnie McKee pitch track (with a very similar title) and precisely in whose hands it may have ended up.

I suspect “Tetris” may be from the sessions - for what was originally intended to be THAT lineup’s follow up to “Sweet 7”. By that point they had signed to RCA/ Sony (and no longer a concern of Roc Nation).

At RCA they were facing reduced budgetary circumstances and various tracks were produced by The Invisible Men who were working on the cheap (due to their also association with Crown).  Supposedly those writing sessions unexpectedly flowed more easily than anyone anticipated and what was produced from THOSE sessions casts the entire “Sweet 7” (final Island era) album - firmly into the shadows.

Understandably however, no-one has ever really been particularly interested in shining a light on that specific corner due to the (then) far more interesting developments (not too long after), that began to instead divert peoples attention regarding a reunion of the original lineup (and everything that later stemmed from that separate situation).

Edited August 29, 2022 by Dax Diameter
Syntax

[Main Pop Girl]

9 hours ago, Dax Diameter said:

You do appear to be on the right lines with this and I have heard that some StarGate productions were on the rejects CDr.

You may very well be correct regarding that above “Firefly” composition - however there is also a part of me with a curiosity about an unreleased Bonnie McKee pitch track (with a very similar title) and precisely in whose hands it may have ended up.

I suspect “Tetris” may be from the sessions - for what was originally intended to be THAT lineup’s follow up to “Sweet 7”. By that point they had signed to RCA/ Sony (and no longer a concern of Roc Nation).

At RCA they were facing reduced budgetary circumstances and various tracks were produced by The Invisible Men who were working on the cheap (due to their also association with Crown).  Supposedly those writing sessions unexpectedly flowed more easily than anyone anticipated and what was produced from THOSE sessions casts the entire “Sweet 7” (final Island era) album - firmly into the shadows.

Understandably however, no-one has ever really been particularly interested in shining a light on that specific corner due to the (then) far more interesting developments (not too long after), that began to instead divert peoples attention regarding a reunion of the original lineup (and everything that later stemmed from that separate situation).

Did they write with the Invisible Men? Ngl, I’d be very interested to hear what a song co-written by Heidi, Amelle and Jade would sound like

[Poison ivy]

1 hour ago, Leaving said:

Did they write with the Invisible Men? Ngl, I’d be very interested to hear what a song co-written by Heidi, Amelle and Jade would sound like

I don’t believe they had many actual writing credits, my understanding is it was more a case of them being enthused by finding their feet together in the studio, recording together at length as a collective unit for the first time and getting to have a say over the allocation of key vocal parts/ harmonies (something that had already been pre-decided on “Sweet 7”).

Aside from their recording of “Santa Baby” - that iteration of the group had not been afforded any real opportunity to make decisions organically between themselves prior to that point as Jade had previously recorded her parts on “Sweet 7”, to the accompaniment of the already pre-recorded vocal stems of the other two (without them having been present in the studio).

Also, though it rarely (if ever) gets mentioned, on the set of the “About A Girl” video, Jade was syncing to Keisha’s vocal of the track (as Jade had not actually recorded the song at that point), which left Jade with zero room to vocally maneuver her own interpretation of those solo lines when she later recorded the track back in London as it was made implicit to her that her studio vocal had to visually match her lip movements of the already shot video footage.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Dax Diameter
Syntax

[sunshineslave]

On 8/4/2022 at 4:35 PM, Leaving said:

Omg, could you imagine if they introduced a completely new member?  The way the entire fanbase would crumble...  

I saw Keisha's video and maybe there's some truth to what she's saying, but I also think it's trendy to jump on the bandwagon of media bigotry right now and I do think there was truth to the bullying accusations. Siobhan spoke about Keisha bullying her on multiple occasions, including when she first left, when she released her first solo single, and in 2009 when the Amelle bullying story was going around.

It's cute that they're friends again and I'm glad they're getting along now, but I don't think the girls should try to rewrite history by blaming everything on the race card or the media.

As for Amelle, she's been much more private and really hasn't spoken publicly about why she left the group (probably because of an NDA or maybe just because it's the classy move). But it seems telling that she took a break from the band to treat her anxiety and then a week or two later Keisha was asked to leave. I don't think it was a coincidence which makes me think there was truth to the bullying rumours there too.

Thank you for those informations. I didn't know about those reports and it made me sad that Siobhan felt this way. It surprising because on the first MKS interview, they said Keisha was contacted by the other girls in 2009... the same year Siobhan was quoted as saying she'll never forgive her. 

Keisha herself have been talking about it in that BBC interview, admitting that the way she expressed herself didn't work with some other people and that she needed to be more diplomatic. Keisha's behaviour is indeed peculiar, I've recently seen an instagram live she did with Mutya and a few of her interactions with the latter somehow made me uneasy.

I think all of this is very complex and everyone involved has a different point of view but I would sum it this way : Keisha's behaviour was not well received by other members when they were in the band (Siobhan for sure, and most probably Amelle). Wether it was bullying or misunderstanding of her intentions is up to everyone's interpretation. Let's not forget that all of them were really different personalities and they didn't seem to have the same artistic vision (which I believe contributed to the richness of their work but probably didn't help getting along). The bullying claim is certainly not an invention from the media but they might have exaggerated it to have better stories. Wether racism was part of the motive for the exaggeration, I don't know. 

When they started all 3 original members were "angry teenager" (their words). The band have always been under a lot of pressure and had a toxic team (still their words). The media coverage was unfair and included lot of sexism and racism (Siobhan said in an interview that some journalists only asked her the questions and ignored the other two members). All of this didn't help for them to get along and work out their relationships at the time. 

I'm happy they managed to work this out somehow. Their relationship seems much more healthy now and they seem to appreciate each-other's company.

Edited August 30, 2022 by sunshineslave

[Main Pop Girl]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:40 PM, Dax Diameter said:

I don’t believe they had many actual writing credits, my understanding is it was more a case of them being enthused by finding their feet together in the studio, recording together at length as a collective unit for the first time and getting to have a say over the allocation of key vocal parts/ harmonies (something that had already been pre-decided on “Sweet 7”).

Aside from their recording of “Santa Baby” - that iteration of the group had not been afforded any real opportunity to make decisions organically between themselves prior to that point as Jade had previously recorded her parts on “Sweet 7”, to the accompaniment of the already pre-recorded vocal stems of the other two (without them having been present in the studio).

Also, though it rarely (if ever) gets mentioned, on the set of the “About A Girl” video, Jade was syncing to Keisha’s vocal of the track (as Jade had not actually recorded the song at that point), which left Jade with zero room to vocally maneuver her own interpretation of those solo lines when she later recorded the track back in London as it was made implicit to her that her studio vocal had to visually match her lip movements of the already shot video footage.

Poor Jade  Although even if she'd been able to put her own twist on About A Girl, I don't think anything could have saved that song. I'll still never understand why they thought it was a good idea for a British girl group to be singing about stars and stripes

On 8/31/2022 at 3:45 AM, sunshineslave said:

Thank you for those informations. I didn't know about those reports and it made me sad that Siobhan felt this way. It surprising because on the first MKS interview, they said Keisha was contacted by the other girls in 2009... the same year Siobhan was quoted as saying she'll never forgive her. 

Keisha herself have been talking about it in that BBC interview, admitting that the way she expressed herself didn't work with some other people and that she needed to be more diplomatic. Keisha's behaviour is indeed peculiar, I've recently seen an instagram live she did with Mutya and a few of her interactions with the latter somehow made me uneasy.

I think all of this is very complex and everyone involved has a different point of view but I would sum it this way : Keisha's behaviour was not well received by other members when they were in the band (Siobhan for sure, and most probably Amelle). Wether it was bullying or misunderstanding of her intentions is up to everyone's interpretation. Let's not forget that all of them were really different personalities and they didn't seem to have the same artistic vision (which I believe contributed to the richness of their work but probably didn't help getting along). The bullying claim is certainly not an invention from the media but they might have exaggerated it to have better stories. Wether racism was part of the motive for the exaggeration, I don't know. 

When they started all 3 original members were "angry teenager" (their words). The band have always been under a lot of pressure and had a toxic team (still their words). The media coverage was unfair and included lot of sexism and racism (Siobhan said in an interview that some journalists only asked her the questions and ignored the other two members). All of this didn't help for them to get along and work out their relationships at the time. 

I'm happy they managed to work this out somehow. Their relationship seems much more healthy now and they seem to appreciate each-other's company.

The timeline is definitely weird. Siobhan came out of the woodwork to say she would never work with Keisha when Keisha left the group, and then a few years later they're all best friends again? It's hard to know if it was Siobhan being overly dramatic for a bit more time in the limelight, or if Keisha was actually being a bully (or a bit of both). It just frustrates me that they try and blame it all on the media instead of actually talking openly about why they did the things they did. Keisha was definitely shady in her interactions, particularly with Heidi during the MKH lineup. But she seems a lot more relaxed now so I hope they've all made amends.

I completely agree with everything you've said in your post  But I also wonder if the media directed questions to Siobhan more because they saw her as the lead singer? Keisha's voice was a lot weaker in the early years (although she sounds incredible now) and Mutya barely even sang in Overload, so I wonder if they just assumed Siobhan was the face of the band and decided to ask her things because of that. Either way I'm glad they're having a revival and getting the love they deserve, although it's sad that many of their fans still don't know how to praise then without bringing down Heidi, Amelle and Jade.

[sunshineslave]

Yeah, the timeline is weird but anyway I give up. What's important is what works now.

About 4.0's writting credits, I don't think it would have happened. By the point when 3.0 started working on Sweet 7 they didn't have any room to do that anymore, regardless of the talent they had for songwriting. I guess the management didn't care, they only wanted quick hits. I believe that Amelle was the only actual songwritter left when they turned into the 4.0 lineup and that probably wouldn't help.

I think Heidi got credit on most 2.0 songs because there was an agreement that everything was shared but it seems like Keisha did a lot the writing (it's very apparent when she's talking about the process of writing some of them) and Heidi did the least.

If you look at the writing credits from Catfight where they didn't work with that agreement, Keisha has 7 credits, Amelle 2, and Heidi only one with the other girls. I suppose the girls where in the room with the writers and whoever contributed lyrics or melody got credited afterwards. I'm sure they all contributed to the creative process but not necessarily providing words and melodies. 

As for Jade, she never had any credit on any Sugababes song nor did she on any of her solo material. I don't think she's a songwriter at all. A lot of talented singers don't have the ability to write songs. Maybe she would if she tried but wasn't encouraged to try. After all 1.0 didn't know they were songwriters before the producer encouraged them to channel the skills they had developed for poetry.

Edited September 1, 2022 by sunshineslave

[Otaku]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:47 PM, Dax Diameter said:

You may very well be correct regarding that above “Firefly” composition - however there is also a part of me with a curiosity about an unreleased Bonnie McKee pitch track (with a very similar title) and precisely in whose hands it may have ended up.

Right...as you pointed out, the title IS a little different (Firefly/Fireflies). And I do believe the Sugababes track is supposed to be produced by Brian Kennedy. It's entirely possible he produced a version of Bonnie's demo of course. Like much of her older work, that song was composed solely by Bonnie, probably just on piano or guitar, and got fleshed out by a producer into a 'proper song'.

Bonnie did work with Brian Kennedy in 2009 on other projects and also around that time, Brian worked with other writers also signed to Pulse (like Bonnie, such as Anne Preven & Scott Cutler) for Syco projects. Considering that this album had a bunch of StarGate tracks at least that were for Leona & Alexandra Burke and Bonnie has likely written/submitted songs for Leona's 2nd albums, it's not unlikely a Brian Kennedy version of To Find You/Fireflies was pitched to Leona (sure sounds the part) and later recorded by the Sugababes.

Then again...it could just as well be a completely different track altogether 🤷‍♂️

On 8/30/2022 at 4:26 AM, Leaving said:

Did they write with the Invisible Men? Ngl, I’d be very interested to hear what a song co-written by Heidi, Amelle and Jade would sound like

 

4 hours ago, sunshineslave said:

As for Jade, she never had any credit on any Sugababes song nor did she on any of her solo material. I don't think she's a songwriter at all.

That song Tetris I mentioned is credited to the 3 of them along with RuthAnne (Ruth-Anne Cunningham) and Paul Meehan. The other track, Never Look Back, is a song written by Jade, RuthAnne & Paul Meehan and registered at the same time. So I assume that's also a Sugababes track.

Jade did have some writing credits on her solo stuff, although not much. There's a few songs with Toby Gad credited to just her and Toby, which ARE pretty mediocre. There are also some other tracks registered that have a co-writing credit for her, and she was credited as a co-writer on a bunch of Trinity Stone songs (but usually along with the rest of the group and established writers like Karen Poole).

6 hours ago, Leaving said:

I'll still never understand why they thought it was a good idea for a British girl group to be singing about stars and stripes

I guess the fact that they were 'going international' was the whole idea behind the song 🤷‍♂️

I'm a huge Makeba fan but mannn those lyrics...it was clearly always intended to be kind of a campy, tongue-in-cheek song (...I hope) but it probably should've been even cheesier, lyrically. Or completely re-written to be a 'serious' song (but I like that option less). To me, it just sort of sits somewhere in limbo between trying to be a hot song and trying to play on the whole 'sweet but sassy little colors of the rainbow' theme of the Sugababes of the days of yonder. It's like Britney's Radar in that sense, but that took things just a bit further and it was much more confident & coherent in its cheesy stank IMO.

I was so psyched for a campy poppy interpretation of the Sugababes by big US writers/producers...but it seems they wanted to play it safe by going for a rather generic current sound...which was a little less current by the time the album actually dropped, like a year after most of the songs were done. It still leaves me Sweet & Amazed that the result of those sessions led to such a mediocre album...

Side note: supposedly Better Than Love was written for Britney, but...I dunno. I'm guessing it probably was pitched to her, but I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't written specifically for the Sugababes. The demo leaked along with that Syco mass leak of Alexandra Burke's debut album (and all the Leona & some Shayne Ward stuff). Clearly she and the Sugababes were working with a lot of the same people at the time and recording some of the same songs (Thank You For The Heartbreak at least). And if it leaked along with all those Alexandra tracks, it was more than likely at least pitched to her as well.

So...I'm pretty About A Girl & Better Than Love would be the 2 initially reported RedOne songs. Apparently they ended up doing 4, so those other 2 were probably tracks that he either had 'lying around', or tracks that were written last minute by some other writer (or possibly and/or the Sugababes).

6 hours ago, Leaving said:

But I also wonder if the media directed questions to Siobhan more because they saw her as the lead singer?

Yeah I do believe that's at least part of it. I'm not saying the media weren't at all to blamce, but playing the race card is also very easy. Siobhan basically did all the lead vocals on Overload, so it would make sense that their introduction greatly affected that.

And while she was obviously also the most introverted and reserved of the 3, there's little doubt in my mind doubt that she's also by far the most intelligent one. Not that the other 2 are simple, but a quick listen to/glance at the lyrics of Siobhan's debut album (written/recorded when she was only 18/19), and comparing it to Mutya's album recorded years later with only co-writing (with established pop writers, and not exactly deep stuff overall) says a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mutya doesn't have it in her to write a good song or anything, obviously she wrote the majority  if not all of at least Maya. And it's not really fair to compare them because they walk completely different paths musically. But personal taste aside (cause admittedly I worship Siobhan's debut album), comparing Siobhan & Mutya's songwriting skills & creativity does tell you a thing or two about them and the difference between them.

The other 2 were a bit more superficial and inherently outspoken, and also just the fact that she was a soft-spoken 'still waters' type pale ginger girl in what was probably considered an R&B group (with poppy elements of course, but definitely much more Urban than downright Pop...lots of garage influences etc. Also, what pop girl group has 3 members? That's an R&B girl group thing). So perhaps it was the fact that she was so different from the other 2, but also your average singer, that also attracted more (probably unwanted) attention from some interviewers etc.

Clearly Keisha is also a capable songwriter, and although she claims she's not a fan of the poppier Sugababes stuff, she does seem to be best at writing it. It always sort of seemed to me like she didn't really know what she wants - like she says in the interview posted in this topic, she loves the whole poppy synchronized dance move thing, dressing up in the same outfits etc but she's also the loud, outspoken & clearly most bitchy one. I think maybe she's just sort of conflicted about herself and having been famous from an early age only added to that, like maybe she doesn't quite know how to reconcile wanting to be a famous singer with being herself. She's tough & Urban but also kinda girly & Disney in a way. And I'm guessing that applies to a lot of aspects of her personality

We know she wrote a lot for the Sugababes, but as far as I know we had barely a handful of solo songs by her leak, that were pretty generic and lacked any clear direction. Kind of cheap-sounding really, and she clearly wasn't only recording stuff she (co-)wrote. More Urban-sounding obviously, but mostly stuff that wouldn't even be THAT out of place on some of the later Sugababes albums. So it's hard to say exactly what a solo Keisha project would be like. I'm curious though - supposedly she recorded over 50 tracks and it was to be mostly produced by Future Cut at some point. And they would have a bunch of Rihanna & Rita Ora etc rejects sitting in the fridge at the time...

To what extent Keisha was a bully we can't ever really know, but it takes little speculation to arrive at the conclusion that she's difficult and just kind of a bitch at the very least. She's probably just very self-involved and lacks a good deal of empathy, and Siobhan is (or at least was) clearly very sensitive. At any rate, it was just a match made in hell for girls their age in those circumstances, especially ones that don't exactly fit the pop star/girl group mold.

Just like Nicole in PCD...it just doesn't work when you're very sensitive to be in a group like that. You might be able to pull it off, (with lots of success even), but in the long run it's just not a healthy situation. Being in a group like that probably isn't healthy for most sane people, let alone very sensitive ones. But it gave them their boosts to varying degrees of success, and isn't that what pretty much anybody joins a boy/girl group for in the end?

[Main Pop Girl]

6 hours ago, sunshineslave said:

Yeah, the timeline is weird but anyway I give up. What's important is what works now.

About 4.0's writting credits, I don't think it would have happened. By the point when 3.0 started working on Sweet 7 they didn't have any room to do that anymore, regardless of the talent they had for songwriting. I guess the management didn't care, they only wanted quick hits. I believe that Amelle was the only actual songwritter left when they turned into the 4.0 lineup and that probably wouldn't help.

I think Heidi got credit on most 2.0 songs because there was an agreement that everything was shared but it seems like Keisha did a lot the writing (it's very apparent when she's talking about the process of writing some of them) and Heidi did the least.

If you look at the writing credits from Catfight where they didn't work with that agreement, Keisha has 7 credits, Amelle 2, and Heidi only one with the other girls. I suppose the girls where in the room with the writers and whoever contributed lyrics or melody got credited afterwards. I'm sure they all contributed to the creative process but not necessarily providing words and melodies. 

As for Jade, she never had any credit on any Sugababes song nor did she on any of her solo material. I don't think she's a songwriter at all. A lot of talented singers don't have the ability to write songs. Maybe she would if she tried but wasn't encouraged to try. After all 1.0 didn't know they were songwriters before the producer encouraged them to channel the skills they had developed for poetry.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to Heidi. She's never had solo material so it's hard to say, but I know that Stronger was inspired by the time she left her family to join the band so I wouldn't be surprised if she was a lead writer on that. I know Keisha definitely took a larger hand later on, but I think up until at least Catfights and Spotlights Heidi (and Mutya, and to an extent Amelle) were all earning their songwriting credits. Honestly, I can't imagine Keisha writing some of Heidi's lyrics on Push the Button or Ugly, and I always thought Heidi was pretty instrumental in bringing the more poppy sound and image to the group too.

2 hours ago, Otaku said:

That song Tetris I mentioned is credited to the 3 of them along with RuthAnne (Ruth-Anne Cunningham) and Paul Meehan. The other track, Never Look Back, is a song written by Jade, RuthAnne & Paul Meehan and registered at the same time. So I assume that's also a Sugababes track.

Jade did have some writing credits on her solo stuff, although not much. There's a few songs with Toby Gad credited to just her and Toby, which ARE pretty mediocre. There are also some other tracks registered that have a co-writing credit for her, and she was credited as a co-writer on a bunch of Trinity Stone songs (but usually along with the rest of the group and established writers like Karen Poole).

I guess the fact that they were 'going international' was the whole idea behind the song 🤷‍♂️

I'm a huge Makeba fan but mannn those lyrics...it was clearly always intended to be kind of a campy, tongue-in-cheek song (...I hope) but it probably should've been even cheesier, lyrically. Or completely re-written to be a 'serious' song (but I like that option less). To me, it just sort of sits somewhere in limbo between trying to be a hot song and trying to play on the whole 'sweet but sassy little colors of the rainbow' theme of the Sugababes of the days of yonder. It's like Britney's Radar in that sense, but that took things just a bit further and it was much more confident & coherent in its cheesy stank IMO.

I was so psyched for a campy poppy interpretation of the Sugababes by big US writers/producers...but it seems they wanted to play it safe by going for a rather generic current sound...which was a little less current by the time the album actually dropped, like a year after most of the songs were done. It still leaves me Sweet & Amazed that the result of those sessions led to such a mediocre album...

Side note: supposedly Better Than Love was written for Britney, but...I dunno. I'm guessing it probably was pitched to her, but I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't written specifically for the Sugababes. The demo leaked along with that Syco mass leak of Alexandra Burke's debut album (and all the Leona & some Shayne Ward stuff). Clearly she and the Sugababes were working with a lot of the same people at the time and recording some of the same songs (Thank You For The Heartbreak at least). And if it leaked along with all those Alexandra tracks, it was more than likely at least pitched to her as well.

So...I'm pretty About A Girl & Better Than Love would be the 2 initially reported RedOne songs. Apparently they ended up doing 4, so those other 2 were probably tracks that he either had 'lying around', or tracks that were written last minute by some other writer (or possibly and/or the Sugababes).

Yeah I do believe that's at least part of it. I'm not saying the media weren't at all to blamce, but playing the race card is also very easy. Siobhan basically did all the lead vocals on Overload, so it would make sense that their introduction greatly affected that.

And while she was obviously also the most introverted and reserved of the 3, there's little doubt in my mind doubt that she's also by far the most intelligent one. Not that the other 2 are simple, but a quick listen to/glance at the lyrics of Siobhan's debut album (written/recorded when she was only 18/19), and comparing it to Mutya's album recorded years later with only co-writing (with established pop writers, and not exactly deep stuff overall) says a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mutya doesn't have it in her to write a good song or anything, obviously she wrote the majority  if not all of at least Maya. And it's not really fair to compare them because they walk completely different paths musically. But personal taste aside (cause admittedly I worship Siobhan's debut album), comparing Siobhan & Mutya's songwriting skills & creativity does tell you a thing or two about them and the difference between them.

The other 2 were a bit more superficial and inherently outspoken, and also just the fact that she was a soft-spoken 'still waters' type pale ginger girl in what was probably considered an R&B group (with poppy elements of course, but definitely much more Urban than downright Pop...lots of garage influences etc. Also, what pop girl group has 3 members? That's an R&B girl group thing). So perhaps it was the fact that she was so different from the other 2, but also your average singer, that also attracted more (probably unwanted) attention from some interviewers etc.

Clearly Keisha is also a capable songwriter, and although she claims she's not a fan of the poppier Sugababes stuff, she does seem to be best at writing it. It always sort of seemed to me like she didn't really know what she wants - like she says in the interview posted in this topic, she loves the whole poppy synchronized dance move thing, dressing up in the same outfits etc but she's also the loud, outspoken & clearly most bitchy one. I think maybe she's just sort of conflicted about herself and having been famous from an early age only added to that, like maybe she doesn't quite know how to reconcile wanting to be a famous singer with being herself. She's tough & Urban but also kinda girly & Disney in a way. And I'm guessing that applies to a lot of aspects of her personality

We know she wrote a lot for the Sugababes, but as far as I know we had barely a handful of solo songs by her leak, that were pretty generic and lacked any clear direction. Kind of cheap-sounding really, and she clearly wasn't only recording stuff she (co-)wrote. More Urban-sounding obviously, but mostly stuff that wouldn't even be THAT out of place on some of the later Sugababes albums. So it's hard to say exactly what a solo Keisha project would be like. I'm curious though - supposedly she recorded over 50 tracks and it was to be mostly produced by Future Cut at some point. And they would have a bunch of Rihanna & Rita Ora etc rejects sitting in the fridge at the time...

To what extent Keisha was a bully we can't ever really know, but it takes little speculation to arrive at the conclusion that she's difficult and just kind of a bitch at the very least. She's probably just very self-involved and lacks a good deal of empathy, and Siobhan is (or at least was) clearly very sensitive. At any rate, it was just a match made in hell for girls their age in those circumstances, especially ones that don't exactly fit the pop star/girl group mold.

Just like Nicole in PCD...it just doesn't work when you're very sensitive to be in a group like that. You might be able to pull it off, (with lots of success even), but in the long run it's just not a healthy situation. Being in a group like that probably isn't healthy for most sane people, let alone very sensitive ones. But it gave them their boosts to varying degrees of success, and isn't that what pretty much anybody joins a boy/girl group for in the end?

Damn, I need to hear this Tetris song! I didn't like Freedom but at least they seemed invested in it, moreso than they had S7 or even C&S. I just wish they'd gone back to Xenomania or someone cooler to produce those songs rather than jumping on whatever generic American producers they could find.

I'd love to hear these Keisha songs! I can't really imagine her doing well as a solo artist, but at the very least she seems to be a good writer and her voice now sounds impeccable so I'd be interested in hearing what she comes up with. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say Keisha is a bitch, but I definitely think some of her behaviour was bitchy if that makes sense  The way she used to flip her hair and side eye Heidi during a lot of their early interviews was pretty catty imo. Still, she was very young when she started and she seems to be a different person now, so I guess all's well that end's well

[Heartbreak Anthem]

21 minutes ago, Leaving said:

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to Heidi. She's never had solo material so it's hard to say, but I know that Stronger was inspired by the time she left her family to join the band so I wouldn't be surprised if she was a lead writer on that. I know Keisha definitely took a larger hand later on, but I think up until at least Catfights and Spotlights Heidi (and Mutya, and to an extent Amelle) were all earning their songwriting credits. Honestly, I can't imagine Keisha writing some of Heidi's lyrics on Push the Button or Ugly, and I always thought Heidi was pretty instrumental in bringing the more poppy sound and image to the group too.

The only writer on "Ugly" was Dallas Austin. Heidi Range's arrival into Sugababes definitely gave them a more mainstream appeal. I cannot imagine the sound of "Freak like Me" with 1.0 at all!

[Main Pop Girl]

34 minutes ago, Heartbreak Anthem said:

The only writer on "Ugly" was Dallas Austin. Heidi Range's arrival into Sugababes definitely gave them a more mainstream appeal. I cannot imagine the sound of "Freak like Me" with 1.0 at all!

Oh wow, you're right! The lyrics always seemed so personal I just assumed the girls wrote on it 

[Otaku]

44 minutes ago, Leaving said:

Damn, I need to hear this Tetris song! I didn't like Freedom but at least they seemed invested in it, moreso than they had S7 or even C&S. I just wish they'd gone back to Xenomania or someone cooler to produce those songs rather than jumping on whatever generic American producers they could find.

I feel like their last 2, maybe even 3 albums were trademarked by not committing to a certain direction enough. I mean, their albums were always versatile, but on those later albums it just seemed like the label wanted to experiment a lot producer-wise, but didn't actually want to take any chances. So they tried to use a similar format to their albums, but the tracks themselves seemed  to get increasingly safe and increasingly dull. I feel like going with big name US producers was a fine move in theory...I just wonder where all the good songs are. There's just 0 creativity.

...I almost wonder if WE didn't get the CDR full of rejects that Jade got 😶 REALLY makes me wonder just what was cut.

56 minutes ago, Leaving said:

I'd love to hear these Keisha songs! I can't really imagine her doing well as a solo artist, but at the very least she seems to be a good writer and her voice now sounds impeccable so I'd be interested in hearing what she comes up with. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say Keisha is a bitch, but I definitely think some of her behaviour was bitchy if that makes sense

There's a bunch on YouTube, just search "keisha buchanan solo" or something. Pretty sure the 2 or so I have are on there. Surely some Sugababes stan has more though...

We never got much in the way of leaks from them, aside from the mass MKS leaks obviously. Luckily Hot Under The Collar leaked, but there must be tons of known (registered etc) and unknown unreleased stuff...

As for her being a bitch or not...I know what you mean, but personally to me she's always come across as bitchy enough to leave that as the main impression so 🤷‍♂️ all things considered there's enough to support the theory that she's not exactly easy to deal with at the very least