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Trayer's Tirades


trayertrash
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Today's topic is Male Rights Activism...

(This features a very heteronormative view of men and women. Your definition of men, women and gender rolls may vary, but the purpose of this is to challenge a specific set of ideas) 

I fully believe there needs to be a discussion about the issues men face. Male rape victims are shamed on a level that we don't talk about enough. Rather than be shamed for their clothing choices, men are told they should've enjoyed their rape it if the woman was 'hot' - even if she wasn't then you hear shit like "I mean... you at least got to cum" There's this idea that if he cums then he liked it. Men cum because of friction, not enjoyment. When a female teacher molests a male student and he comes forward about it people (virtually always other men) say things like "why'd you rat her out?" "dude you were so fucking lucky" "why did you ruin it?" and other fuckerious things. (fuckerious is a word right? it is now)

There's also issues with our child custody laws that favors women the majority of the time. Custody battles should be viewed case by case. If they child will be in better care with their father, then that's where they need to be. Some women just shouldn't be mothers, or at least not have custody for a variety of reasons. There's also an issue with men settling during these cases out of fear of destroying their family. Men aren't supposed to know how to properly take care of themselves. Laundry? Cleaning? Cooking? They're all viewed as a 'woman's job' -men aren't supposed to do those things! They're not supposed to know how to properly care for their children. Diapers? "Babysitting" their children? Nope, they can't possible know how to do that!

There's unrealistic expectations of body images. Women will shame men for not having a perfect body. They're shamed for not being hairy or for being too hairy. They need to be muscular and strong, but not too muscular or it's off putting.

They're expected to provide for their families. If they can't they aren't "real men" If a woman, specifically his partner, makes more than him he's supposed to feel emasculated. Men are expected to have the ability to fix everything. If they can't then they aren't a "real man" They need to have jobs that are 'manly' They need to be in charge. They're supposed to have the world on their shoulders without showing emotion.

They're not supposed to like certain colors or movies or music because they aren't 'manly' They aren't supposed to show any emotions, besides anger. Crying? Naw that makes him a 'pussy'

There's also a bit of homophobia with discussing what a "real man" is. If he can cook, clean, wears pink, likes pop music, then he's 'gay' - which is, for some reason, the worse thing you can call a man... well, besides telling him he's acting like a woman. -_-

Circumcision, birth control for men, negative portrayals in the media as fathers being nothing but dumb and aggressive, paternity leave, adoption, kink shaming, being shamed when they're abused by women, having their rapes and abused mocked by men, woman and the media... all of these are important issues that need to be discussed.

BUT the issue is that the only time they're ever really discussed is when it's an attempt to undermine feminism. When women discuss rape, street harassment, abuse, etc. it's for us to discuss things that happen to us. We know that men experience these things too, and we want to prevent them from happening. Us discussing the issues we face isn't erasing any issues that men face. We aren't saying men don't experience them. It's just our time to discuss things.

We want to discuss the issues men face and bring awareness to them, but we also feel it's something that only men can fully discuss with one another. I can sit here and state the issues and throw around statistics but I'm never going to understand what it's like to be a man. Men need to have these discussions with each other. Men need to show solidarity with one another. Men need to discuss how misogyny and homophobia play into male stereotypes and why they fear things that are seen as feminine or gay.  Our issues are so intertwined in one another that we fail to see that this isn't a "us vs you" battle. 

These discussions NEED to happen. We all need to address these issues. Focusing on one issue at a time doesn't mean you're silencing other issues. But if you're only going to discuss them when women are talking, then you don't actually care about those issues. I want to see men take action, true action. Start a support group for male survivors. Shame people who tell men they should've liked it. Fight against unfair laws. Do something, ANYTHING to stand with your brothers. BUT do so without shaming or silencing women. Bringing us down to lift yourself up isn't solving anything!


Considering most of the members of this forum are men, I'd love to know how you feel about this. What struggles have you personally faced due to male stereotypes? Do you think sexuality makes your struggles different than what I've mentioned? Do these gender norms exist in the gay community? How do you deal with those vs heteronormative norms?

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The struggle is real, you said almost everything. It's so tiring being called gay just cause you don't play football or you like pink things! When i was a child i had to deal with this kind of stuff, sometimes they took fun of me for the way i talked or cause i didnt like to play with cars and stuff. Ugh it was annoying.

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IMO, men (especially those heterosexual) tend to think with their dicks instead of brains. It is mostly seen during the period of growing up. When I was in secondary school, boys were always talking about sex. Girls are very objectified by such boys. They talk about them as they are sex toys. I think that male rape is not mentioned that much, cause it's hardly ever considered something bad by men. They hardly ever complain about it after all. Again, there are cases where it is harmful to somebody's mental health. However, we hear about women rape more often, because they know it's bad, they have the courage to speak about it publicly. 

What is more, I really don't like this stereotype about the family model, where women should stay at home and take care of children and home, while men are gruff lumberjacks.  IMO women (sorry for generalization) are more emotional and sensitive. They are easily emotionally attached to children. Of course, there are some pathological, extreme situations where mothers beat the shit out of their children, or there's alcohol abuse involved, but It is rare. On the other hand, men, in most cases, find it difficult to be so emotionally attached. They want to set a good example for their kids. They want to teach them more practical aspects of life. Maybe it sounds kinda stereotypical, but I think it's true. When it comes to me, I have a really great contact with children and I like taking care of them tho.

To conclude, in my humble opinion, men are needed only to inseminate women. They are deprived of any emotions and women, if they wanted, could do everything men are supposed to do by themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Tweener said:

IMO, men (especially those heterosexual) tend to think with their dicks instead of brains. It is mostly seen during the period of growing up. When I was in secondary school, boys were always talking about sex. Girls are very objectified by such boys. They talk about them as they are sex toys. I think that male rape is not mentioned that much, cause it's hardly ever considered something bad by men. They hardly ever complain about it after all. Again, there are cases where it is harmful to somebody's mental health. However, we hear about women rape more often, because they know it's bad, they have the courage to speak about it publicly. 

What is more, I really don't like this stereotype about the family model, where women should stay at home and take care of children and home, while men are gruff lumberjacks.  IMO women (sorry for generalization) are more emotional and sensitive. They are easily emotionally attached to children. Of course, there are some pathological, extreme situations where mothers beat the shit out of their children, or there's alcohol abuse involved, but It is rare. On the other hand, men, in most cases, find it difficult to be so emotionally attached. They want to set a good example for their kids. They want to teach them more practical aspects of life. Maybe it sounds kinda stereotypical, but I think it's true. When it comes to me, I have a really great contact with children and I like taking care of them tho.

To conclude, in my humble opinion, men are needed only to inseminate women. They are deprived of any emotions and women, if they wanted, could do everything men are supposed to do by themselves. 

I'd like to state that not all men 'think with their dicks' and it's a learned behavior, not something they're born doing. Women are objectified in almost all shows and movies, they're shown as weak, there to please men, and are often viewed as a prize, not a person. Boys also see women, including their mothers, objectified when just going to the store. That's something boys and girls both learn at a young age and I think if we stopped putting those tropes into society then it would change a lot of the "men only think about sex" way of thinking.

Women are taught from a young age that their job is to nurture while boys are taught they're supposed to work an be away from home. This is why baby dolls are targeted towards girls and tool kits and tractors are targeted towards boys. I read a study a while back that said boys who grew up playing with dolls were more involved in their children's lives than women who played with trucks and tools. That's further proof this behavior in taught, not genetic. 

I think your post is contributing to male stereotypes in a way that my 'rant' was challenging them. Yes, those are common amongst men, but because that's what they're taught from birth. If we didn't have this this idea that toys were gendered or there's gender specific parenting roles then these stereotypes wouldn't really exist.  I also hope your conclusion was sarcastic. Yes, women can do whatever men can, but men aren't only to get us pregnant... if that were the case what is the purpose of gay men? What about women who don't want children?  

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1 hour ago, Jump Rope said:

The struggle is real, you said almost everything. It's so tiring being called gay just cause you don't play football or you like pink things! When i was a child i had to deal with this kind of stuff, sometimes they took fun of me for the way i talked or cause i didnt like to play with cars and stuff. Ugh it was annoying.

Sorry if this is intruding, but are you straight? I'd love to hear a straight male perspective on how gender rolls effect then when they're active within things that typically viewed as for women//gay men - ie, being a pop music fan on a forum is typically viewed as something a gay man would participate in. Are there challenged to not fitting into heterosexual or homosexual stereotypes? (@Cypher read the whole page since I'm wanting your opinion too)

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11 minutes ago, trayertrash said:

Sorry if this is intruding, but are you straight? I'd love to hear a straight male perspective on how gender rolls effect then when they're active within things that typically viewed as for women//gay men - ie, being a pop music fan on a forum is typically viewed as something a gay man would participate in. Are there challenged to not fitting into heterosexual or homosexual stereotypes? (@Cypher read the whole page since I'm wanting your opinion too)

I'm straight, yes 

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22 minutes ago, Tweener said:

yep. It was sarcastic partially. Men are needed for more than that of course. But the women part was actually something I deeply believe in. What about gay men? It's a hard topic, which I thought about MANY times. 

I think women typically have a closer bond to their child since they're carrying then around for 9 months :P But if she doesn't want to have kids or she doesn't feel a bond with her own kids then everyone looks at her like she's this awful person because it's expected that all women should want kids. But when guys aren't interested in having children or aren't close to their children no one really cares because absent fathers are seen as typical :/  

I just want people to be respected regardless of how they feel about being a parent and for us to destroy the stigmas behind it :mo: 

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6 hours ago, trayertrash said:

Sorry if this is intruding, but are you straight? I'd love to hear a straight male perspective on how gender rolls effect then when they're active within things that typically viewed as for women//gay men - ie, being a pop music fan on a forum is typically viewed as something a gay man would participate in. Are there challenged to not fitting into heterosexual or homosexual stereotypes? (@Cypher read the whole page since I'm wanting your opinion too)

tbh I usually ignore it when people say things like "hey gurrrrrrl" or "sup hoe" to me. I also tend to avoid about half the forum because frankly, I don't care to interact with people who are going to refer to me in such a manner. That being said, I don't mind gay people, I just find myself at ends when I am faced with people who are on the more flamboyant side. Much like in person, if I meet someone who's super peppy regardless of orientation, I tend to avoid them just cause I'm not about to keep up with their energy unless it's organic.

Growing up, I didn't play football or work on cars, but it never made me feel anything less of myself. I've never believed in following stereotypes and when people put me in a box, I just tell them "have fun with that." What someone says about me doesn't dictate who I am, but if someone's gonna call me a bitch, I have no problems being a bitch to that person.

As far as pop forums are concerned, I don't think anyone's ever commented about it being weird in real life. I have had a couple instances of people here saying things like "you'll become gay eventually!" or "don't lie about being straight". In my mind, they're setting themselves back. It's because of phrases like that, that people have a negative view on homosexuals. It's phrases like that which make me want to go into the mindset of, "all gays are flaming homos that are out to turn straight people gay" even though I don't believe that statement for a second. I've met a couple really great people here and even though it's not in person, they've proven themselves beyond what i would expect. It's easy to take advantage of people online because there's no physical interaction and at the end of the day it's just pixels, but a few people here have made a lasting positive impression. I would list who they are, but then everyone else who isn't listed is going to pick up their pitchforks and torches, I ain't about to deal with that kind of backlash. :cypher: 

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2 minutes ago, Cypher said:

tbh I usually ignore it when people say things like "hey gurrrrrrl" or "sup hoe" to me. I also tend to avoid about half the forum because frankly, I don't care to interact with people who are going to refer to me in such a manner. That being said, I don't mind gay people, I just find myself at ends when I am faced with people who are on the more flamboyant side. Much like in person, if I meet someone who's super peppy regardless of orientation, I tend to avoid them just cause I'm not about to keep up with their energy unless it's organic.

Growing up, I didn't play football or work on cars, but it never made me feel anything less of myself. I've never believed in following stereotypes and when people put me in a box, I just tell them "have fun with that." What someone says about me doesn't dictate who I am, but if someone's gonna call me a bitch, I have no problems being a bitch to that person.

As far as pop forums are concerned, I don't think anyone's ever commented about it being weird in real life. I have had a couple instances of people here saying things like "you'll become gay eventually!" or "don't lie about being straight". In my mind, they're setting themselves back. It's because of phrases like that, that people have a negative view on homosexuals. It's phrases like that which make me want to go into the mindset of, "all gays are flaming homos that are out to turn straight people gay" even though I don't believe that statement for a second. I've met a couple really great people here and even though it's not in person, they've proven themselves beyond what i would expect. It's easy to take advantage of people online because there's no physical interaction and at the end of the day it's just pixels, but a few people here have made a lasting positive impression. I would list who they are, but then everyone else who isn't listed is going to pick up their pitchforks and torches, I ain't about to deal with that kind of backlash. :cypher: 

Thank you for your input :) You're one of the maybe 5 straight guys I've bumped into on forums the past decade or so and this is a topic I've always been curious about but never really had the opprotunity to discuss. The sociology of it all intrigues me, comparing stigmas between genders and sexualities, being involved in various aspects of stereotypes within falling into a specific one. There's a lot I could discuss about misogyny within the gay community and how society ignores it because they're "just one of the girls" - but that's another rant within itself. 

Btw, we both know I top that list ;) 

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I actually completely disagree with what you said tbh. I think that when it comes to both gender and race relations in the present climate, we tend to have this very competitive atmosphere where we're setting up dichotomies against each other - male vs. female or black vs. white. Instead of having seperate discussions about issues that we're perceiving as seperate, I think it would be a lot more prudent to instead expand existing discussions and look at the issues that everyone is facing. Apart from minor physical differences, there is no difference between the emotional toll that a man faces when raped and a woman faces when raped - apart from maybe the societal influence which you discussed. If we could come together over the issues that both sides see as problematic, we would do a lot more good and make a lot more social change as opposed to if we just continue this pointless banter of "oh, my gender has it worse than yours because of a, b and c".

We shouldn't think of the issue of rape as "female rape" vs "male rape", because that's always going to exclude people from the discussion. We should just look at the issue as rape. Rape is disgusting regardless of who it happens to and instead of specifying times to discuss specific genders, we should open the floor to males, females, and very importantly, everyone in between who would be ignored and silenced by discussions focusing on just one gender.

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3 hours ago, Countess said:

I actually completely disagree with what you said tbh. I think that when it comes to both gender and race relations in the present climate, we tend to have this very competitive atmosphere where we're setting up dichotomies against each other - male vs. female or black vs. white. Instead of having seperate discussions about issues that we're perceiving as seperate, I think it would be a lot more prudent to instead expand existing discussions and look at the issues that everyone is facing. Apart from minor physical differences, there is no difference between the emotional toll that a man faces when raped and a woman faces when raped - apart from maybe the societal influence which you discussed. If we could come together over the issues that both sides see as problematic, we would do a lot more good and make a lot more social change as opposed to if we just continue this pointless banter of "oh, my gender has it worse than yours because of a, b and c".

We shouldn't think of the issue of rape as "female rape" vs "male rape", because that's always going to exclude people from the discussion. We should just look at the issue as rape. Rape is disgusting regardless of who it happens to and instead of specifying times to discuss specific genders, we should open the floor to males, females, and very importantly, everyone in between who would be ignored and silenced by discussions focusing on just one gender.

I agree with this - but I think in order to have these discussion as a hole we do have to break them down into smaller categories. We have to address specific issues one by one while discussing how they play into the problem of rape as a hole. We shouldn't silence people, especially victims, when they're discussing things they've faced. I actually say this morning when a guy was talking about being raped some idiot jumped in and said "Women are raped more often" and that's shit that I don't stand by. Yes, it happens to women more, but it's no one's right to cut off a victim to discuss themselves. We have to hear each others stories and learn about the issues we don't even realize exist because it doesn't happen to us. 

I think this can be applied to every issues. With the lgbt+ community, we could say "all lgbt discrimination is bad let's fix it!" which yeah, that's true, but we can't really fix it until we understand specific issues each section of the community faces. Being gay and being trans might mean you face similar discrimination, doesn't mean that gay men understand trans issues or how people within the lgbt community discriminate against trans folks. One isn't more important than the other, but to discuss the issues as a hole we have to hear all sides. Same with rape victims - women aren't typically told they should've enjoyed their rape because the man was hot and men aren't typically told they brought it onto themselves because of their clothing choices. Addressing issues one by one without silencing others and connecting how specific gender norms, stereotypes and double standards effect certain groups more than others is the only way to really have this discussion imo. 

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18 minutes ago, trayertrash said:

I agree with this - but I think in order to have these discussion as a hole we do have to break them down into smaller categories. We have to address specific issues one by one while discussing how they play into the problem of rape as a hole. We shouldn't silence people, especially victims, when they're discussing things they've faced. I actually say this morning when a guy was talking about being raped some idiot jumped in and said "Women are raped more often" and that's shit that I don't stand by. Yes, it happens to women more, but it's no one's right to cut off a victim to discuss themselves. We have to hear each others stories and learn about the issues we don't even realize exist because it doesn't happen to us. 

I think this can be applied to every issues. With the lgbt+ community, we could say "all lgbt discrimination is bad let's fix it!" which yeah, that's true, but we can't really fix it until we understand specific issues each section of the community faces. Being gay and being trans might mean you face similar discrimination, doesn't mean that gay men understand trans issues or how people within the lgbt community discriminate against trans folks. One isn't more important than the other, but to discuss the issues as a hole we have to hear all sides. Same with rape victims - women aren't typically told they should've enjoyed their rape because the man was hot and men aren't typically told they brought it onto themselves because of their clothing choices. Addressing issues one by one without silencing others and connecting how specific gender norms, stereotypes and double standards effect certain groups more than others is the only way to really have this discussion imo. 

I don't think that by discussing multiple sides of an issue you have to set aside certain times to do it tho. For example, in less than a paragraph in your last post you just discussed men being raped and women being raped, and the differences and similarities between them, incredibly eloquently! You didn't have to make one thread for us to exclusively discuss rape when it comes to women, and another thread for us to exclusively discuss rape when it comes to men. As you suggested, the two genders society accepts are so intrinsically interwoven and defined by each other that it would be impossible to do that. In this thread, we've had a discussion of rape that's pretty gender neutral and inclusive of everybody's opinion and story, but that still highlights the ways in which experiences differ. It's really not hard to do, and I think it's the best way of trying to dispel this strangely competitive battle of the sexes situation that's occurring when it comes to these kinds of issues. It's a way to understand difference while still appreciating that everyone is going through a similar struggle and no one is in it alone. :) 

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